The Reckoning

-I was sexually assaulted.

-I was afraid to speak out.

-He grabbed me at work.

-What about due process?

-...they let you do it.

-I need to keep my job.

-I was afraid.

-She's a liar.

-All women deserve to be heard.

-Open your eyes.

-What am I supposed to say?

-This has been happening for decades.

-I am speaking today, not just for the Me Toos, 'cause I was a Me Too.

But when I raise my hand, I am aware of all the women who are still in silence.

-The #MeToo movement shattered the silence and put sexual harassment and assault to the forefront of the national conversation.

-Men try to refer to it as, like, a witch hunt, but it's not.

-I think people forget a lot that there's a human behind this.

-When you go through something as traumatic as sexual violence, there's a way that you close up.

-Who were we supposed to tell?

-The powerful started to fall, from Hollywood moguls to media giants, celebrity chefs, politicians, and titans of Silicon Valley.

To understand how #MeToo is impacting all of us, I traveled around America.

-During my time in the military, I have encountered sexual harassment.

-To get a seat at the table, you had to pretend that harassment didn't bother you.

-Speaking up could have cost me a place to live.

It could have cost me a family.

-What was most horrifying was how my chain of command reacted.

-The world is finally hearing women roar.

This is "#MeToo, Now What?

", a new series examining sexual harassment that dares to have the uncomfortable conversations.

At the table, Angela Rye, CNN commentator... Nadine Strossen, first woman to lead the ACLU... Ijeoma Oluo, editor at large, The Establishment.

-That issue really does bother me, and I know it sounds not so feminist, but it really stresses me out.

-No, no, but that is the elephant in the room.

That's what people who are afraid are saying.

"But there are women who use that."

So what's the line between, you know, a backlash and between engaging in a dialogue?

I am Zainab Salbi, and today we say "Me too," and ask, "Now what?"

What is at the core of our rage and the roar that the world is hearing?

-I think what we're seeing is generations of rage, and I think this is just the tip of the iceberg.

I think if people are saying this right here is rage -- we're just getting started.

The truth is, is that women have been asked historically to sacrifice a lot for the greater good and told that this means that, you know, eventually it will pay off for them.

Women are still being forced out of their careers, still getting paid less, still being abused, and eventually it's gonna be too much.

-I think it has always been too much.

Just we endured it for so long, honestly.

And Beverly, a chef in Chicago, told me something about what's behind this pain.

-I used to work at Trotter's, right?

And, you know, he used to say, like, oh, if I wasn't married... And he would rub -- kind of rub my back like this.

If I wasn't married.

And I'm like, "What does that mean?"

You know?

Like, little, like, comments, flirting comments, you know?

And I was 20.

If you think about how all the challenges that women have to go through to just -- to do the same job that a man is doing, we have all these other hurdles to go through and all these other, like, social things to navigate... and self-consciousness about our bodies.

You know, because of this power struggle, your self-esteem is way lower, you know?

And the things that you will tolerate are a lot more when your self-esteem is low.

When you're told somehow that you're less, you tolerate more.

-I think it's a very important moment because, honestly, a lot of the men -- In the conversation with men I know, they don't understand that to be a strong, confident woman, you are actually going against the wind.

You are constantly told in one way or the other you are less.

-Absolutely.

I mean, one of the things that's been interesting to me is to see how even the most powerful, privileged white women who are successful in their careers are also being subject to abuses ranging from physical violence to just ubiquitous discrimination, structural discrimination in wages and compensation.

-I have some frustrations around that, too, though, because if we're honest, that's how the #MeToo Movement got exposed.

And it took Alyssa Milano saying, "Yo, I didn't start this; Tarana Burke started this," this powerful black woman who I just met and completely fan-girled the other day.

And so, to me, as a black woman, again, going back to this, once again, frustrated that it took powerful women in the industry to acknowledge the fact that there are domestic workers every day going into hotels subject to this, women as waitstaff in restaurants every day being subject to this.

But it took a white woman or several standing in solidarity on this issue that's impacted them, though.

So let's understand also that self-interest but recognizing the importance of needing to address it -- To finally hear black and brown women who have been saying this.

-And here's the caveat in here.

There is a price to speaking up.

We're told lean in.

It became a household discussion and name.

Lean in and speak up.

And some leaned in and paid the price.

Let's take a look at what Lisa told me.

In the article, you also talked about actually very explicit, I would say, harassment.

-Yes.

-And so you broke your silence, you spoke up, and you, in essence, mobilized other women to speak up, as well, in your own industry.

-Yes.

-But then you paid the price.

-I did.

If you look at the difference with celebrities, they're extremely wealthy.

They have agents.

They have lawyers.

When you're in an industry where you don't have all of those things, you could suffer dire, dire consequences, ranging from simply just being blacklisted, off the record, phased out, "don't hire this person," to even sued by the agencies' legal departments.

I joked when I wrote that article that I knew I was Jerry Maguire'ing myself, that I would get a lot of pats on the back but then never work again, which essentially has happened.

-So, Lisa, since she wrote a letter, all the things that happened to her -- people commenting on her breasts, C.E.O.

's of companies, you know, and her looks, enduring horrible sexual jokes.

When she wrote the letter, other women joined her.

In a year and a half, she got only two jobs, and she is really having a hard time actually earning a living.

-And that's a reason why all these issues of structural discrimination and gender inequity and pay are -- They're all interrelated because if you don't have the economic security, you are much more vulnerable to all kinds of abuse, including sexual harassment, but other kinds of abuse, as well.

-Have you been in positions where you endured or calculated not to speak up?

-My entire professional life since the age of 16 has been enduring and navigating around sexual harassment.

I think that that's something that most women face.

I remember other professionals telling me -- The first thing they told me was, "Never go to HR."

-Wow.

-"If you go to HR, then you're seen as a problem."

I think it's important to remember, too, though, that some people who are most at risk will never get their voices heard, especially undocumented women whose immigration status is often used to hold them hostage.

-There is too much going on for us not to stand together, for us not to act interdependently.

And, you know, the issues around undocumented people, the issues around minimum wage, making sure people have a living wage, and racism in this country, all of the forms of oppression.

-Here's my observation.

Everyone is very supportive of this moment, you know?

Everyone's like, "This is good.

It's about time."

All of that.

And when it comes to issues of sexuality, people tiptoe around this issue.

So let's -- I want to bring it up, which is the idea that women's sexuality particularly have been commodified and commercialized, and there have been rewards for women -- financial rewards, career rewards, fame, whatever -- when they use their sexuality.

Here's a quote from Salma Hayek.

She articulates it the best.

And a reporter asked her, "Have you used your sexuality to advance your career or did Hollywood use your sexuality to sort of build your fame?"

Okay.

Here's what she said.

Do we give mixed messages when women use their sexuality to advance their career?

-I think that it's important to remember that whatever a woman uses of herself is still hers to use.

And just like -- You know, Brad Pitt started his career.

He really hit the big scene in "Thelma & Louise," right?

He was literally walking sex throughout that entire movie.

And yet he's not wandering around getting harassed day in and day out and people saying he deserves that because he took his shirt off in a film.

We do need more opportunities for women.

We have, for centuries, been told that we have our sexuality, we have our motherhood.

Those are the two things that we have to offer and to make and build a life off of.

That is not fair.

That is wrong.

More should be offered.

-I think it's different when we're talking about sex to advance your career in ways that are not appropriate, right?

Whether it's, you know, sleeping with a boss to get ahead or whatever.

Like, those are the things that I wonder and have wondered since this movement started.

I'll never forget when I first started my job at the Congressional Black Caucus -- There were older black women who said to me, "Well, how did you get your job?"

-Yes, yes.

-And I said, "I don't know how you ever got any of your jobs, but I don't get my jobs that way."

-Yeah.

-Right?

And, so, the one woman that does it sets a precedent for the man who they did that with to expect that from other people.

I don't think that's okay.

That's not -- It's certainly not the women who come behind them, but that issue really does bother me.

And I know it sounds not so feminist, but it really stresses me out.

-No, no, but that is the elephant in the room.

That's what people who are afraid are saying.

"But there are women who use that."

You know?

How do you deal with that?

-Or there are women who are falsely accused of using it, and I think that's what happened to you, and I have to say, that's happened to me, too.

Not of sleeping my way to the top.

-Even questioning you.

-And questioning how you dress.

Like, you couldn't choose to wear clothes that you considered attractive because then the assumption would be that you were using your sexuality.

-Historically, women's dressing has been used against them -- and I'm here with two lawyers -- to say, "Well, she dressed so provocatively, so she's asking for it."

-Asking for it.

Yeah.

-When people say that, it's insulting for men.

It's insulting for the integrity of men.

It means that they have no self-control whatsoever.

-No self-control.

-And I actually want to bring up what some women actually in conversations in Texas were telling me, so let's take a look.

-It's like we want to be sexy, but we want to be respected at the same time, right?

'Cause I'm like, "We don't want to dress like..." I mean, we're all young, beautiful women, you know?

We want to be able to express ourselves.

We want to have fun, we want to be open, but at the same time, it's like there is that backlash of like, okay, if I do go out there in this outfit, we know the kind of attention that we're gonna be warranted, but it sucks.

-I mean, it's so hard because it's, like, I agree but then I disagree because I mean, if I'm wearing something that I know I look sexy in, I am the most confident person.

Don't get me wrong.

-The power.

-Yeah, so it's two-sided because should I not feel sexy in my skin because this guy is objectifying the way that I look in my outfit?

-Right.

-You work out.

You look good.

You want to show it off.

[ Laughter ] What's wrong with that?

-I think it's really important that we remember that women's bodies are their own, and men are capable of seeing a woman and not acting on whatever urges they have, just like I'm capable of seeing a guy and not acting on whatever urges I may have.

But society has commodified women, has sexualized women, and has said their bodies aren't theirs -- their bodies are for the general public and for the pleasure and feeling of men, and that needs to stop.

-It's true.

Let's go to the discussion of due process.

-Mm-hmm.

-Yeah?

All right.

And I actually want to start by going to Roman, a young man who said, "We may need fear."

Let's take a look at what he has to say.

-Maybe right now is not the time for nuance.

I think that the scales have been tipped -- this is undeniable, right?

-- in men's favor for a very, very long time, and women have felt very threatened for a very, very, very long time -- There needs to be a fear there.

They need to feel like there are consequences to their actions.

-So, fear, which is right now what's happening -- everyone is scared -- or due process or nuances?

How do we process this moment?

-I think what we have is a pendulum swing, right?

Course corrections.

And, clearly, for all of history, until this moment, the pendulum was completely in one direction -- no due process for women who had suffered violence and discrimination and harassment of the worst sort.

But I also think, as a movement, to maintain momentum and credibility and widespread support, there has to be more nuance, so we don't presume somebody guilty of the worst offenses just because an anonymous complaint has been made, which has happened in some situations.

-This is where, for me, race is a huge factor.

Just as an example, black defendants who have been exonerated for sexual-assault crimes are 3 1/2 times more likely than white defendants to be found innocent after the fact.

I think of Emmett Till.

So, as a lawyer, this is where I struggle.

Yes, women need to be heard.

Yes, these issues need to come to the surface.

But I am very concerned about people being wrongfully accused, particularly in my community, because it's an age-old thing that has happened time after time after time.

-The question is, what's the appropriate way of saying -- he's accused, and he loses his job, and then his life is destroyed, you know?

And how do we process that?

-I think what disturbs me more than anything is, right now, we have a society where only 3% of rapists see jail time.

-Mm-hmm.

-And we're already now, when we just have, what, a handful of men losing their jobs after decades of harassing women -- We're already saying, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

Let's not push it too far."

The truth is, is that we have legal process that should be stuck to for a reason, but even right now, the legal process usually fails victims more than perpetrators when it comes to sexual assault.

-It's true.

-And I think that it's important that, socially, we know we can actually say, "This is inappropriate, and there will be social consequences."

And I think that we constantly talk about the potential of harm to men, and we rank that as more important than the actual harm, the actual measurable harm done to countless women over and over again.

And I don't like how early we're making this shift to prioritizing men over the safety and dignity of women.

-It's not prioritizing, but I also would not prioritize the other way.

And I think what has happened on college campuses is very scary because a much broader concept of sexual harassment, much less protective procedures have been in place for about a half-dozen years under the Obama administration.

And that has brought statistics to light that constantly show that even though African-American men are a tiny percentage of college students, sadly, they are way disproportionately represented among those who are charged and found culpable, which means not a prison sentence, but being expelled from campus.

And we know that there's racial disparity throughout all of the so-called "justice systems" in our society, so why would we trust this justice system?

-I think part of the frustration I've been having, honestly, in bringing up black men over and over again is that we have black men who are criminalized in every aspect of our criminal-justice system, but it only seems to be brought up in situations like this, where it benefits people who have another agenda.

-That's not true.

-I think that we need to look -- -That might not be your point, but that is very true.

-This happens time and time again, yes.

And I think that we definitely need to.

I am constantly, day in and day out, saying, "We need to look at our criminal-justice system and how it harms black men."

1 in 3 black men likely to see prison in their lifetime.

We can do that, and that is a separate process, where we are finding where that bias lives, but we also do have a very serious problem of sexual offenders of every race being less likely to see any legal consequences.

And we can look at both of those.

And we don't say because we have one, we do not address the other.

We address both right now, and I think we need to look at that.

And in college campuses, our young women -- 1 in 5... -It's true!

-...are being assaulted.

-Very true.

-So we need to look at both.

And that's still the case, regardless of all this talk of overreach.

And I have two sons.

If they go to college and they overstep and they disrespect a woman's bodily autonomy in that way and they make her unsafe, if they violate a woman, I hope they are expelled immediately.

I hope that is a lesson they can learn right away.

-Very true.

Very true.

We all have the men in our lives that we love, but for me -- And, for me, as someone who cares about women's rights, I don't want women to abuse their power, for us.

-Right.

-For our own power.

Not for anybody else, you know?

-Well, I think that you're right.

I don't think that we have the ability yet to use power in a way to oppress because we're just not that powerful, even though we're the largest demographic in this country.

-Very true.

-There's a lot of power shifts, paradigm shifts that have to happen before we're even in that space.

-It's true.

-But I think that we're right.

I mean, we'll be really good if we always keep that question first -- how do we ensure that we always use our power for good?

-Now we need to talk about the impact on dating and romance.

One young college woman told me that it's impacting her life.

-I think that it has kind of created a more negative atmosphere, just as far as the male population is concerned.

It appears like men are more afraid to, like, speak to women openly, and everything is just, like, walking on eggshells.

-You're feeling that?

-Yeah.

-Seriously?

Like, how?

-I've just felt that with a lot of my friends and in personal experiences, as well.

It's much more comfortable to be in group settings, so that there are more, like, I guess, like, "witnesses," maybe, per se.

So, that way, nothing can be accused of anybody.

-I mean, my take is that, if you're in a relationship, hold onto your relationship.

People are afraid to go out these days.

-You know, if we get to a point where we went from catcalling to people walking on eggshells, I will take the eggshells.

To me, there's nothing worse than a catcall or somebody approaching you.

You're seriously like, "Please don't come over here.

Please don't come over."

You know?

So I'm like -- You're on eggshells?

Great.

That means you're gonna be cautious.

That's all that means.

Proceed with caution.

-I'm a 37-year-old woman, and I still cannot go on a date without texting a friend to let her know where I am and who I'm with, just to protect my own safety.

-Wow.

-That's ridiculous.

So, yeah, if men are a little nervous, you know, I'll deal with that, because I'm still sending, "In case I die, here's where I am," you know?

And that's a really ridiculous state to ever be in, but I'm almost 40!

I don't want to do this.

-That's true.

Our safety is constantly an issue.

And dudes are suddenly like, "Oh, no, um... how do I hit on this girl at work without it being wrong?"

And that's the end of the world?

No.

-This is the other thing -- because I think people worry, are there shades of gray, or is it a black-and-white issue?

And some of the discussions, like the comedian Aziz Ansari discussion -- A lot of people are saying, "Well, is that sexual harassment, or is that a bad date?"

as one New York Times columnist wrote.

Well, I think what came out of it is that it's important to have this discussion.

-This concerned me a lot as a parent of a young man.

I have a 16-year-old son who dates.

He actively dates women.

I don't ever want my son to think that anything other than affirmative consent is a good time.

I don't want him to think, "Oh, she doesn't really want to do this, but maybe, if I keep asking, if I ask in a different way, that will be success."

How is it success when only one person is enjoying it?

-No, it's true.

And in this case, in my opinion, he was not a good lover, let's say, at the least, you know, or not a sensitive man.

But when we equate that with sexual harassment and with crossing the line, that is the issue in here.

But how do we address this issue with keeping women's agencies intact?

-Here's what I think, though.

In all honestly, accountability lies for the person acting, right?

It is not, "I am going to keep pushing until you run out of my apartment."

Like, why are we being so pessimistic about the capabilities of men to actually want affirmative consent from women?

-But how do we distinguish between consent and consent?

Because some women are saying that it's not one affirmative consent -- we need several consents throughout it, which is true, also.

-Right.

-I think that's right.

I think this particular story troubled me, as well.

The reality of it is, we do have to have, again, speaking of conflation, a separation between regret and consent -- issues surrounding consent and sexual assault and sexual harassment.

And this story -- Just, to me, it felt too gray, and I think it is worth talking about.

-But how do we constructively engage men in the discussion?

-I want them to listen first.

I just want them to come to the table and listen first.

Like, for the first time -- Again, and we started kind of here -- it's not on us to make them feel comfortable in this conversation.

It's on them to listen right now, openly understanding that we have a culture here that's a problem.

-And do you think -- How do you feel about them not speaking up?

I feel like I want to hear from them.

-You know, as an educator, I'm thinking this has to be an educative process, and, of course, a prerequisite is listening and hearing and believing and respecting.

But we have to give them an opportunity to express themselves, as well, and to even be confident in confessing ignorance, right?

And confessing openness to changing their perspectives.

-For me, there is a line between hearing and listening, which they need to hear and listen -- because they really have not understood how bad this is -- and between a line of not shutting down and having a backlash and saying, "We're not gonna hire a woman now anymore, because we're afraid."

But they are saying that.

-I know.

-Or saying, "This is all gonna pass by 2020, and we're all gonna forget."

If this is how they respond to it, then this is dangerous.

So, what's the line between, you know, a backlash and between engaging in a dialogue?

-I really need men to start toughening up on this.

I really do.

I am so tired of bending over backwards to explain abuses against me, oppression that I'm facing day in and day out in a way that men can hear it.

You know what?

Not only do I have to hear it, I have to live it.

Men can handle it for a second.

And I think it's really important that we remember that, every day, men wake up and decide what type of men they want to be.

And they have an opportunity right now to hear the pain that our current definition of manhood has caused countless women... and decide whether they want to be a part of the solution or not.

And, yes, it might be painful to hear echoes of their own actions in what they're hearing, but if that's the worst thing you go through in your life, you are having an amazing life.

I need men to toughen up.

-And on that note, thank you so much.

Thank you, Nadine.

Thank you, Ijeoma and Angela.

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much.

-And to be continued.

Is it possible to have truth and reconciliation in this moment of reckoning?

Next week, an exclusive interview with a powerful film critic who lost everything and the woman who accused him of sexual assault.

-My thing is that I was a total ass...to so many people, and I saw that as a sign of strength, dominance, and I saw that as a sign of my inherent goodness, and I was -- You know, I was accultured to believe that.

-He's the person who should feel embarrassed about this, and I'm the person who's held onto that embarrassment and shame for so long.

-Now it's your chance to join the conversation and tweet us your thoughts with the hashtag #MeTooOnPBS.

See you next week.

♪♪ ♪♪ -To learn more about this program, please visit PBS.org/MeTooNowWhat.

This episode of "#MeToo, Now What?"

is available for download on iTunes.

Other episodes in the series are also available.

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